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Haralion
Member

Canada
959 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2006 :  21:40:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Ok, they're gonna make an animated feauture out of Dragons of Autumn Twilight. Personnaly, it's kinda bumming me out....let me explain: first of all i always thought that DL would be made in a live action film. Why? because the story is that good, because it has been made by people of heart and has to be put on the screen by real people and not animated versions of them..... Don'T get me wrong, i will not only support this animated movie but will probably sleep a week at the cineplex before the opening.... But man,they are making a mistake, and boy do i hope i'm wrong this time but i think that the appeal won't be as it would've been with a live action feature. Why? because if it were made in live action, it would one of those movies that define a genre(fantasy) as LOTR did, it would have brought new stories to the big screen,a new life for D&D movies, or even Forgotten realms or any other licence owned by WOTC. As an animated movie, it'll be great i'm sure, but it won't make the same impression on the viewers as would have done with live action. It'll be another animated movie, a really good one, but just another one.... cause you know what? they don't make enough films as Peter Jackson did, and people are craving for movies like that.....

But that's just my opinion, you may agree with me or not, but please,let's talk about it ......we've been talking about it without the knowledge that it would become real for so long now, we must continue our work and hope that the people making the film will come here once in a while and read our views on the matter.....

"Pain is temporary, film is forever" , Peter Jackson

Woggie
Senior Member

USA
1035 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2006 :  22:22:23  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I agree, I've been telling my friends that don't come to this site that I have an anti climactic announcement, "There's going to be a DL movie in the fall of 2007! and its going to be a cartoon ...".

Let's say Peter Jackson re-made Lotr in ink rather than live. It wouldn't have made anywhere near as much money, acclaim, or impact as it did as a live action film.

But, like you G, I will support this adventure as furiously and passionately as I would if it were live. I do hope they do a terrific job and I can't wait to see some stills!

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brianm
Starting Member

30 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2006 :  22:24:06  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I mostly disagree with you. There is nothing that prevents an animated film from having as much, if not more, artistic, intellectual, and emotional impact as a live action film. People do tend to separate them in their minds here in the occident, but that’s not universally true. We’ve seen glimpses from Hollywood of animation’s potential in flicks like “The Incredibles” but nothing yet with the power of “Graveyard of the Fireflies” or “Princess Mononoke”. Those two animated films I’ll put up against just about anything live action, and certainly anything coming out of Hollywood in the past thirty years.

The big challenge will be the assumption that animation is for children, and cannot be used to tell meaningful or deep stories. Getting people to go to the theater to see it will be the challenge, as “it’s a cartoon” wars with “it’s PG-13”. Of course, Peter Jackson had the same issues to overcome. The Lord of the Rings is generally seen as a children’s story here in the US, and fantasy movies are kid’s fare. Before the first movie came out, the children’s meals at Burger King got you a cute little mug with a picture of one of the characters on it that lit at the base, and, even more jarring, a cardboard crown with the ring’s inscription written across it. And yes, after the first movie came out, that sort of nonsense disappeared quickly. But it took the movie to change opinions.

Actually, the Dragonlance story is well crafted for this. It has its slapstick elements, with gully dwarves and kender, and its moments of great spectacle and wonder, in its haunted forests and massive battles. All of these play to traditional animation’s strengths. But the story does not play by traditional American animation’s rules, and anyone still clueless as the movie enters its dénouement will get the lesson hammered home good and hard at Sturm’s funeral.

So I see this as a great opportunity for animation to finally realize its potential in Hollywood. If this film is as great as it can be, it has the potential to change people’s opinions about animation and what its “proper” uses are. And if it does that, who knows? Maybe we’ll finally get to see a proper Elfquest movie, too.

- Brian
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Woggie
Senior Member

USA
1035 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2006 :  22:31:47  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
The indredibles is a CGI animated film though. In the announcement she said they've been working on this for a year which tells me its cell animation, not CGI, hence the more "cartoon" feel. If it were CGI, I would not be so critical.

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brianm
Starting Member

30 Posts

Posted - 29 Jun 2006 :  22:45:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Woggie

The indredibles is a CGI animated film though. In the announcement she said they've been working on this for a year which tells me its cell animation, not CGI, hence the more "cartoon" feel. If it were CGI, I would not be so critical.



Nor would others, which is not exactly a rational opinion. After all, what "serious" movies have been made fully CGI? "The Incredibles" is extremely cartoony, with its deformed shapes, exagerated body parts, and playful violence. It was billed as a children's film that adults could enjoy, rather than just endure, as with "Chicken Little".

The fully animated "Graveyard of the Fireflies" is only a children's film in that the main characters are children. Its themes, the horrors of war at the dawning of the nuclear age, are anything but childish. It uses children as protagonists in order to underscore the helplesness and fragility of humanity in the face of mechanized warfare. The fact that it is animated does nothing to undercut the power of the story.

- Brian

Edited by - brianm on 29 Jun 2006 22:46:39
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Valiant797
New Member

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  05:15:30  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Two cents:

First, I'm getting a bit overwhelmed/sick of all the CGI animated films coming out. Went to see Cars and after the trailers I leaned over to my wife and said (in my fake old man voice), "I remember when they used to use something called a paintbrush and ink for these movies." In hindsight, I should have called them talkies. But seriously, if Autumn Twilight reinvigorates the hand-drawn (or even cel look, like Justice League, which, surprise! done on computer), then I'll admit to being just a teensy bit happier.

Second, I know its been a while since I posted, but anyone who remember my brief forays in this forum knows that I enthusiastically support the live action version. I've said it before, it's why I got a degree in cinema. My shining light at the end of the tunnel is that LotR was done in animation first, and DL seems to follow its footsteps in more ways than one. Hopefully that means the animated film will spark enough interest in a live action version... unfortunately it may be a decade or two before that comes to fruition.

"If fortune favors the foolish, and fortune favors the bold, does fortune favor the foolishly bold?"
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Golden_eyes
Member

Canada
702 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  09:10:49  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
As soon as I heard about the movie I immediately thought: I hope they made it as realistic as possible. By that, I imagined something along the lines of Final Fantasy VII: Advent Children:

http://mokkori66.free.fr/screens/aug06/img09.jpg
http://image.com.com/gamespot/images/2004/screen0/197341_20040510_screen003.jpg

It’s seriously getting harder and harder to differentiate some animation from real life. Amazing.


I suppose that is a no-go though. And I’m sorry but I have no clue what is what in animation…and I’m not sure too many other people follow either. What the hell is cell animation? Can you post some links or pics when you’re referring to a certain kind of animation, please? It would be way less confusing and less research I have to do.


“We pity him. We hate him. We fear him – all because there is a little of him in each of us, though we admit it to ourselves only in the darkest part of the night.”—Justarius

Edited by - Golden_eyes on 30 Jun 2006 09:12:51
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sylon
Starting Member

USA
2 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  12:34:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm going to withhold judgment until I see the final product I talked bad stuff about the LOTR movie's and had to eat my words when I seen just the first movie I know this is animated but if done right it could be great I take comfort in the fact that weis and hickman had some say so in how it's done surely they won't put out a 95 min piece of crap
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Haralion
Member

Canada
959 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  14:44:14  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Well, well, well..... i see we all have one thing in common: the love for this story. The thing is Brianm that, besides The Lion King, there's no animated flick who ever really made an impact on all sides on the market(at my knowledge). Some have commercial successes, others are loved by fans but are not popular with the mass. I think we needed DL to be liva action because i personnaly will FEEL less with cartoons, not because the story won't be good or that the cartoons won't be well crafted, it'S just that, well they-re cartoons. I do love cartoons for what they are and what they can bring but would't we all love to see real actors portraying the roles? And excuse me but i don'T think they will get an exceptionnal cast for the voices, a few run out actors maybe as Lucy Lawless(don't get me wrong she did kick ass in Xena, but what else did she do besides Euro Trip?)....anyway... And Goldy, it'S not gonna be an animated feature like that, the companies involved are real cartoon artists, and the director has done a lot of cartoon series in the past as i've read on IMDB but nonetheless, until i see a couple of stills, i'm still gonna think that way.

I don't think it'S a bad idea entirely, not just the right choice for this story....i sure hope they prove me wrong....

"Pain is temporary, film is forever" , Peter Jackson
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Neddo-35
New Member

87 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  15:34:28  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Golden_eyes i have to agree. if they made the animation like that it would be looked at better by adults that have not read the books which could help the ratings compared to something like tom+jerry or the simpsons. now i saw the movie u are talking about at a friends. and i have to say i didnt like, but not for its animation, that was awsome, but for the fact i dont like Final Fantasy and my friend made me sit and watch it. and though i didnt like it it still looked real for a cartoon.
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Valiant797
New Member

USA
60 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  15:51:55  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
'Cause somebody asked, so I might as well clarify (at least what I mean). Cel animation is what you grew up with. Its what every animated feature was before computer animation. It comes from the fact that each frame of hand drawn animation is refered to as a cel (which I believe is short for sericel... don't ask me what that means). Its old school, clear plastic and ink. As I mentioned previously, there are digital ways of recreating this (i.e. Justice League on Cartoon Network, they use digital ink and paint). This is different from the new standard in animation which is 3-D modeling (i.e. all Pixar films).

Now, I respect that some on the forums want this to be as photorealistic as possible (i.e. the Final Fantasy movie), which is 3-D modeling. I'm not sure I personally agree with that. Personally, I'd rather see excellent cel animation. Don't think of Tom and Jerry. Think of Iron Giant or Aeon Flux (the series, obviously). I freely admit this is a personal preference, but as Haralion said, more than anything I don't want them messing up the story.

"If fortune favors the foolish, and fortune favors the bold, does fortune favor the foolishly bold?"
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Haralion
Member

Canada
959 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  16:44:37  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I like a good cartoon as the next guy, espescially if it'S about Dragonlance, and i' pretty sure the story won't be the problem. You see, cartoons don't appeal to the mass, even if you include children in the lot. It's not that there aren't great cartoons out there, it'S because a majority of adult moviegoers prefer live action. It's not because the film won'T be good or bad or whatever the outcome, in the end it'll still be animation. I LOVE animation myself, but ask around, your friends, yours folks, your co-workers...of course in OUR inner circles we'll find people who do but as we widen the search....i'm not so sur...

as i mentionned earlier it's an opinion, the door isn't closed for live action yet, and we'll get to see something interesting at least in the meantime....

"Pain is temporary, film is forever" , Peter Jackson
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brianm
Starting Member

30 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  18:37:04  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Haralion
The thing is Brianm that, besides The Lion King, there's no animated flick who ever really made an impact on all sides on the market(at my knowledge).



I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "all sides of the market".

I can say the "cartoons are for children" thing is going to be a big hurdle to clear in the domestic (US) market. Last I heard, the highest grossing film in Japan was an animation, drawing in large adult audiences. Animation's doing fairly well throughout Asia, and I've heard anecdotal evidence saying the same is true in Europe, especially France. I don't have good hard numbers on any of that, though, nor do I know what the South American market looks like. I do know the notion that "cartoons are for children" is a particularly American perversion. I suspect that Paramount is either hoping to challenge that, or is aiming this movie squarely at the D&D playing, anime watching, ren fest attending nerd audience.

- Brian

Edited by - brianm on 30 Jun 2006 18:37:58
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Golden_eyes
Member

Canada
702 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  20:02:36  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Thanks, Valiant.

I’m just afraid that the animation will take away from the seriousness of the books. When I think of “cell animation” I’m looking for The Simpsons—comical, a little impractical, but for DL I hope that they can do all that they’re doing while leaving the emotions of the story intact. I believe it was Haralion that stated animation does not always get that across. With the CGI (Final Fantasy) look, at least they could get that across. What I was thinking was that it’s the next best thing to live action.


“We pity him. We hate him. We fear him – all because there is a little of him in each of us, though we admit it to ourselves only in the darkest part of the night.”—Justarius
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Woggie
Senior Member

USA
1035 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  20:39:38  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Briann, let me clarify what I mean. If this were done in CG, like say the Animatrix or FF I would not be so critical. With CG you get more dimension in what you are looking at rather than with cel animation it looks flat. Even the Incredibles, though cartoonish, had dimension, more realistic texture characteristics and the backgrounds were, well, incredible. You don't get the same feel with cel animation.

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Natsufan
Junior Member

Spain
118 Posts

Posted - 30 Jun 2006 :  21:21:44  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I see two points being talked here, and worrying everyone. First, the "people won't take it seriously", second, "2D animation doesn't make you feel as much as Live action or 3D". My two cents:

1. "People don't take animation seriously".

Twenty, even ten years ago, this would be extremely true. Though we had Fire and Ice, Heavy Metal and others, only hard-core lovers of fantasy would go to see those movies. And it was hard to find a cinema in which they were released. In that time, "cartoons" were for kids. But it's nowadays, and though I could mention The Simpsons, Futurama, both Shreks and others, let's be honest and call things for their names: JAPANESE ANTIMATION. Since the invasion of manga and anime, at least for almost everyone under thirty and everyone who owns a play station (or a Grand Theft Auto videogame), animation is NOT for kids any longer. When I went to see both Shreks, I could hear the children bothering everyone out of boredom, while the parents were laughing out loud and enjoying the art. The parents had a good time, but they had to see that the movies weren't for little kids. Of course, the kids are a good excuse to see the movies: I saw many parents bored while watching LotR with their kids. People who like fantasy will go to the see the movies, the fans will go to see the movies, and all the "new generation" who has seen Shrek, Final Fantasy and other adult animations, will go to see the movie. We are NOT in Bashki's or Heavy Metal's time. Only people who dislike fantasy would not go to see the movie... But I bet those didn't go to see LotR either.

2º. "Animation doesn't make you feel as much as live action".

Totally disagree: it depends on the animation. If it's done properly, with good face-work and good dubbing and good music, it moves as much, if not more, than live action.

I've enjoyed all the greatest Disney movies enormously. With a childlike glee, for sure, but enjoyed them and found them moving. Just remember Ariel's facial expressions: she acted better than many real actresses.

And as for Japanese animation, through the years it's made me feel such a wide array of emotions that it's difficult to describe. Cowboy Bebop was an emotional rollercoaster that could turn from horror, to sympathy, to pain, to laughter to desperation (¡and what an ending song!). I suffered all through Mima Kirigoe's ordeal during Perfect Blue. I felt identified with the everyday-life, simple, ordinary happiness of Azumanga Daioh. I cried my guts out with Grave of the Fireflies. And that's even taking into account the basic flaw of Japanese animation: face design. Even if they make faces different, they always look too similar, despite the animation itself is great and the characters move gracefully.

I watched Disney animation and enjoyed the music and artwork inmensely. I saw Japanese animation (the good plots), and enjoyed the plot, the strenght of the feeling they produced, and as I'm a perfectionist, I used to wonder: "Why can't we have the best of both?" I'd love to see traditional, face-working Disney-type animation with a serious plot, with deaths and battle and epics like the Japanese do. And now it's my chance!

I'm not afraid at all of the animation movie. Now all our problems are solved: no one was pretty enough for Laurana, no one was huge enough for Caramon with being besides a good actor. ¡No problem! You get a good voice actor and make Laurana as lovely as your brush can make her, Caramon as massive as your anatomy knowledge allows you, Raistlin as good as you can... ¡and all fits into budget! ¡If they do it right, it¡s going to be a GREAT movie!

So, I'm glad that it's going to be animation. I just hope that they spend on a good soundtrack all the money they will save in casting.

And, you may agree in this with me or not, but I have to say anyway:
LotR was far inferior to the books, and that was due to lack of budget for such a great project. And, among other things, I believe:

1. Cate Blanchett doesn't qualify for being one of the TWO most beautiful women in the world. If you draw her, you make her as beautiful as you can. AND, she didn't look more impressive because she was shown in black and green and with a roaring voice. That was a flaw.

2. The armors, walls and details were poorly done. I could see the poverty of the budget there. Now, Qualinesti will definitely be an impressive place.

3. The acting wasn't so great. Sorry, but the best acting in LotR was done by Gollum. If in LotR the best acting was done by the animation character, I'm putting all my hopes in this movie: maybe animated charactes can do what human beings just can't: meet both physical and acting requirements for the roles.


So, CHEER UP, GUYS! It's going to be a GREAT movie! We just have to do as the LotR fans did: create tremendous expectation in this site during years... and what the LotR fans didn't do: make strong suggestions to the movie team so they don't spoil things up.

My suggestions would be:

1. Spend as much as you can in a good soundtrach. What makes Conan the Barbarian rise from good to excellent movie is that the soundtrack is amazing. Hard work on that! Music is what generally moves people's hearts the most.

2. Don't "childify" the movie! If Riverwind has to be opened in a way that his entrails show, we want entrails showing. If Kitiara goes to bed with many men, with many men we have to see her. If Silvara bathes naked, don't give her a swimsuit (we can see nothing in the shadows, I myself prefer suggestion to blatant show, I find it more elegant and sexy, but I fear that they may give her a bikini with all the moral considerations, and I wouldn't like that). You'll make more long time fans among kids from 12 to 16 if you make the movie more adult, than if you make a kind of "ewoks" mistake to attract younger kids.

So, as for me, after the initial shock, no need to say that I'm glad it's an animation movie. There was no way of getting the proper budget for a live action movie, so only thing I ask from the film-makers is, DO YOUR BEST!
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